if you two want you could just email each other y’know
Hehe, sorry for hijacking your thread I will stop now as we won’t agree in any case and I think we’ve both made our point!
In any case, no offence taken and hopefully none on your side CodingJack. I think we can just agree to disagree
I was thinking just what Chris was. Accessibility – can Flash content be read to the blind? It’s a shame Adobe likes taking away from those less fortunate.
You could probably even find an argument for all these Individual issues I have singled out. You can provide an HTML alternative. You can probably build Flash sites that allow adjustment of font sizes. You can build Flash sites with meta data for search engines etc. Many Individual points can be addressed.
But the central question really is: if you build a full flash website have you really made the most of the potential the medium offers you? And here the answer simply and undeniably is. No, you have not.
And there really is no reason why not to.
The same argument also often is applied to HTML /CSS validation. Is validation always right? No it’s not. Will a valid code always work correctly? No it won’t. However is that an excuse to write HTML /CSS that does not validate? The general belief is that it’s not. Yes, there will always be instances where for good reasons to HTML and CSS may not validate. However that does not mean that you should not strive towards achieving the best the medium allows you to.
But maybe I’m starting to get sidetracked here
“Because the one I’m from I’ve never had a single client mention accessibility to me at any point in the relationship”
Then you should have mentioned it to them and you should have consulted them on it. That’s why you’re the professional, that’s your job. Your job is not to say yes to everything the customer wants. Your job is to make sure the customer gets what’s best for him and understands why. if you consult your customer on accessibility and usability I guarantee you that your customer will opt for accessability with additional Flash elements to enhance the design as opposed to full flash website and shutting out potential customers.
If the corporate can’t afford to lose 100,000 customers, then I don’t think a small business can afford to lose 1.
There really is no need for a full flash website. You can build a website that can be navigated without flash and script, that can be navigated by keys only, that can have font sizes changed by the viewer, that has sufficient contrast, that has forms with well-defined fieldsets, that uses alt tags etc etc and still compliment it with enough graphical finesse to achieve that “wow” effect.
I’m not trying to sound harsh or condescending, Everybody is entitled to their own religion. But web design is all about making information available to everyone. And most importantly about understanding the medium you working with and using it to its full potential. And there really is no argument against it. It’s like arguing against gravity.
You will not regret reading this, it is already over 10 years old and it still holds an enormous amount of truth. On top of that it is an outstandingly entertaining read I insist that all my customers read it before we even start talking about their design. And I do also cater for small and medium-sized businesses. In fact these are the ones that need our consultation and advice. The big corporates know already what they want and need.http://www.alistapart.com/articles/dao/
P.S.: and just to make you chuckle, in case you didn’t see the irony: I get my “accessibility analysis reports” sent in Microsoft Excel … get it? lol
“On any device”
yes, but the “device” does not just mean tablets and smart phones, it means things like screen readers for the blind, aids for the motorically challenged, etc. It means universal accessibility of all content. Fair enough if you want some fancy graphics, but use them as ornaments, as non-essential parts to complement a fully accessible and usable website.
If you’ve been selling pure Flash websites to customers you have not done them any favours even though they may have said that they liked those when they sent you samples. You should have informed them that even though they know may look nice with smooth hover menus they are not accessible to a certain percentage of their potential visitors.
As part of my job I have to prepare a lot of websites for Global corporate’s. It it is by now one of the main requirements that these websites meet a maximum of accessibility guidelines. Most of them require very strict respect of these. To the point where even I as an access ability and usability advocate shake my head at times.
It used to be just a few freaks insisting on semantics, accessibility, usability. Everybody else just wanted to look pretty. These days if you serve a wider audience you will not get around it. My customers hire test teams to validate my work against WAI guidelines. And if I do not need at least two a certain level I get a 30 page Excel sheet with things to fix.
I’m sure you know where to find these: http://www.w3.org/WAI/
there is no way I could meet even a minimum of these with a Flash website. And the same also goes for small and medium-sized businesses. They may have less customers, but that doesn’t mean that they can afford to exclude some just because they wanted to look pretty over functionality.
And yes I do like aesthetics and I do like beautiful design. But Flash really does not have any place in web design.
It does have a place in animation, in flash games, in banners as “X” correctly pointed out. Everything that’s nonessential to the visitor of your website. It does not have any place as an integral part of a web design.
In any case, that’s what many have been defending for years. It seems like companies are catching up to now. (there are even government guidelines to accessibility) But yes I do realise that not everybody agrees with this. I think it’s a mistake, but I’m also aware that we could discuss this all day long
To me Flash websites are websites created by graphic designers who do not know enough about the Internet as a technology and how to make the best use of it. They may be fantastically beautiful. But they have nothing to do with what the Internet should be stand for.
Honestly, I don’t think this has anything going for it. What stuck behind the letters of the word “design”?
What are you trying to express?
This is just a run-of-the-mill font with a rainbow gradient on top. Really, this isn’t a logo, this is just a Text style. I’m not a particularly great one at that. You really need to put a little more work into this.
Hmmm, I think yo didn’t read my post right, I clearly said that it had its use for animation. However, animations are just about the single least least important thing on the web. Sure, I like them. I also like 3-D renderings and fantastic illustration. However that makes about 0.00001% of all Internet users.
The Internet is about accessible and usable information for everyone on any device. it is about content and semantics.
And after that comes business: e-commerce, Flight/hotel/holiday reservations, all sorts of other things the other 99.99% of the Internet users are interested in.
So the fantastic animation you can do with Flash at 60FPS is great. But it’s not enough to keep flash alive, because nobody but a few design buffs iare nterested in it.
Personally I don’t think there’s enough there. Divide to choose between this set and all the others that are Available already I don’t see why would get this one becaof the others have so many more options, shapes, styles, etc.
This is just a bunch of rectangles. Nothing wrong with them, but definitely no incentive for me to buy Them either.
Some not sure there’s enough there…
“theweb wasn’t ready to replace Flash animation without taking a step backwards. And for this reason I’ll never understand the logic.”
Lol, agreed I guess it took some time to come to it’s senses! Too many parties invloved <:) It’s still a very young medium. Look at some of the ridiculous things seen on TV in the early years … there were such things as comentators who told what you were seeing on screen: “Now she leaves the room ” ... no sh!t … lol
Rebuttal 1: absolutely. It’s probably even worse, because not only is a closed but on top of that they control whatever gets distributed via the App Store. So it’s a censor at the same time. not good! (And yes, I do have an iPhone and iPad :))
And yes, you’re right, it’s not as closed as they make it look. For example I use Swishmax when I am absolutely required to create something in Flash because it makes simple tasks just so much easier. And it creates fully compatible .swf.
Rebuttal 2: I do agree with this one. Flash is great for animations and videos. For anything else it’s ridiculously bloated. I would even suggest that Flash animations are lighter and give more creative freedom to the author then alternatives.
Having sat that I don’t think it’s enough to justify the massive architecture behind it.
Rebuttal 3: Absolutely. If anything they only do it because it’s for their own good.
Nevertheless I will put my money on Flash disappearing sooner rather than later apart for some nice animations. Which is fair enough, but surely we don’t need the entire Flash architecture just for some animation fun.
For all those wondering what is wrong with Flash:http://cloudpanic.com/flash.html
On the other hand I don’t think there’s anything wrong with using Dreamweaver. Just don’t let it do anything automatically or interfere with any of the code you write. Write in code view, doublecheck in the design view, Upload your files via FTP . It’s a quick and easy way to get visual feedback on the code you are writing.
I’m not saying that there aren’t other tools, that there aren’t any better tools. But if you do not let Dreamweaver do any of the code writing for you, then there’s nothing wrong with using it.