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lollum says


Ok, I can include my page builder functionality with a plugin. But if I want to use a page element in a theme and this element will not be used in another theme? How can I do this? A different “page-builder-plugin” for every theme?
No, just make the plugin a bit flexible. Take add_theme_support() for example, you can activate certain features in the theme but not required to, just do the same thing for the page builder plugin.

Yes, you’re right. I can activate only certain elements.

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kriskorn says

Hello Mr. Williamson,

I have a few questions I would like some opinion.

First of all, I respect you as an author and all your contribution to the community. I am not writing to insult or bash anyone, I just want some feedback to my thoughts, if that is okay…

One thing is to write a plugin and a completely different thing is to provide a complete website solution to a customer, right ?
I am all on board with using all the things, that shouldn’t be in a theme, in plugins, but this just doesn’t work for Envato nor its authors.

An example: You want to buy a car. You go to a dealership and they show you a nice mustang, you buy it, but now they tell you, you’ll only get the body from this location. To get the wheels, interior, engine and stereo you need to basically get them elsewhere and waste more of your time, before your car actually is fully functional. How is that good to the customer ?

The above example shows that the user experience is 0, as told @Kriesi a few pages back.

Why should people buy from here, when they could get a default blog skin from wp.org for free ? (This is addressed more to Envato…) Basically the close to zero user experience on this site drops even more.

Right now the creativeness and a great set of amazing themes are the key arguments that drive buyers here, although I must admit some are poorly coded.

I know that in a perfect world, everything would be soft and pink and people wouldn’t try to be better than others to get money. But we don’t live in a perfect world and we all have families to feed.

Basically what I want to say is that this wouldn’t work for Envato nor its authors… Or maybe I just don’t suit to the theme development business ?

I just want some opinions and feedback, because right now all this seems a little bit chaotic.

All the best,
Kris

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deckerweb says

The problem I have with lots of themes here on ThemeForest is not the design or the creativity! My problem is that: all is bundled with so-called “premium” plugins (real plugins) or integrated plugins (seems like part of theme but in reality is a plugin!). I don’t like that and it is absolutely not useful. It makes your coding/ updating/ supporting of themes a horrible experience and also for the end user.

I have “repaired” quite a few sites from “buyers” that bought a “complete website solution” with their $45 theme from HERE. At least they thought of. In the end they had to pay me to break up those crazy bundles…

The competetion here seemed to be about who has the biggest, fastest, most colorful and most crazy theme-plugin-suite-bundle. I am not dumb or crazy: you just cannot get 3, 5 or 10 premium plugins (each worth at least $20 – $50), plus a design (= theme) for about $45 – $60. There’s no “complete website solution” for about $60 out there. That’s just a big fat lie! That was, is and will be!

And because buyers/users were “trained” in this whole thing I described above lots of them seem to believe this lie in the end…

With the announcement from today, Envato just took care to stop that behavior. I hope that now the competition here will be about design, creativity and originality again and not about bundling of stuff.

A special note to theme authors: free your mind from the logic that plugins have to be tied with themes. Both can go hand in hand if needed (and if the use case requires it) but at any time it should be possible to de-activate either the plugin or the theme and have NO set of hundreds of errors or fully crashed sites…

I do plugin development for Genesis Framework quite heavily and that is an example of a stripped down framework. Any extra features are plugins – paid or free, official or from the community, or any general WordPress plugin. And this is absolutely NO limit on the design front. I know that many of you may dislike Genesis – you are free to :) However, what I want to say, is the logic behind that: make your themes/ framework lightweight, concentrate on design and new design/ layout structure ideas rather then on LOTS of functionality in a theme. Give plugin authors and “customizers”/ freelancers out there an API so they can hook in anywhere at any time. Breathe hooks and filters. Embrace the real WordPress standards.

The more functionality you are packing in your theme the more you are trying to say to me: I may be not that good at theme development because I have to “whitewash” with feature bloat and/ or bundled plugins.

The TGMPA Plugin Activation class was written out of the need to have a basic dependency system for themes -> plugins or plugins -> plugins. If you ever heard of a Linux package system and how that works, it’s about exactly that! The TGMPA class is like a first fruit in that direction. I hope that one day we have more stuff like that, so that it will be even easier as today to declare dependencies between themes and plugins or plugins and plugins.

My final note: Free from feature bloat, understand what themes and plugins in WordPress are intended for and don’t stop on delivering awesome designs here! I see it regularly: authors that just got it and don’t limit on the creativitiy front! Their themes are among the very best here, because I won’t get distracted by sliders, shortcodes or other bundled stuff!

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ThemeFusion says

A little something to think about … What do the buyers want?

Is every buyer a full time or part time web dev? Absolutely not, in fact from what we’ve experienced I’d be confident in saying at least 50% of our users are Tom, Dick and Harry building their website for their own local business.

They want an all in one package, and that’s why they bought a theme from Themeforest.

Luke

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moutheme says

deckerweb,

your comments seems like reasonable, but I disagree, or maybe I don’t understand something.

Can you please explain me WHO and HOW will do a “complete website solution” from the “plugin-ready incomplete website solution”? Do you know that very large part of the buyers can’t code even basic CSS rules? These people need that “complete website solution” because it is the fastest way to achieve result without any knowledge. Any step from this model will result in loosing that buyers.

Please open the Popular Files page – what you see there? Do you think that people want to buy themes that they need to build then like a framework – some of them don’t even know such word.

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mordauk says

For many reasons, I strongly disagree with the idea that themes should EVER be a full website solution. If you want a full website solution, you hire a developer or agency.

The idea that you can adequately obtain a full website solution for $60 is crazy, assuming you need more than what a standard WP install can provide.

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ThemeFusion says

For many reasons, I strongly disagree with the idea that themes should EVER be a full website solution. If you want a full website solution, you hire a developer or agency. The idea that you can adequately obtain a full website solution for $60 is crazy, assuming you need more than what a standard WP install can provide.

Yes and I respect that opinion and agree with it to a certain extent. The important part here though is not what the developer or marketplace thinks, it’s what the buyer thinks ;)

After all, they are the reason we are all here.

Luke

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mordauk says

I won’t go into detail on this, but I really believe that one of the reasons buyers want the all-in-one-solution is because we have conditioned them to think they do.

This is definitely not true across the board, but in general I think it’s true.

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PrimeThemes says

A little something to think about … What do the buyers want?

Is every buyer a full time or part time web dev? Absolutely not, in fact from what we’ve experienced I’d be confident in saying at least 50% of our users are Tom, Dick and Harry building their website for their own local business.

They want an all in one package, and that’s why they bought a theme from Themeforest.

Luke

+1

Sad but true, these WP guys cannot understand that we build custom WP theme here. Seems they push us to providing theme that can work for any type of business. First GPL problem, now this new requirements, what next ? “We will move all your themes into wp.org theme repository” :D

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ThemeFusion says

I won’t go into detail on this, but I really believe that one of the reasons buyers want the all-in-one-solution is because we have conditioned them to think they do. This is definitely not true across the board, but in general I think it’s true.

I definitely won’t say that’s not a possibility, but I will say I disagree, or at least feel that if it is true then it’s only true for a small percentage of users. But the bottom line is that buyers want that. A quick look at the top selling themes proves that. And you can go back as far as you need to week by week to see that. Take that away, and you could be biting the hand that feeds you.

Interesting thought though for sure.

Luke

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