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danharper says

The problem is essentially with Dreamweaver. Its WYSIWYG view is absolutely terrible in most versions, understands next to no web standards and is built on a terrible rendering engine.
However, I believe CS4 is now built on the Webkit (Safari/Chrome) engine, and so understands it better?

Either way, templates here are coded to the latest web standards (no tables), and so the ones which do appear nicely in older versions of Dreamweaver is purely by chance.

Since you make a living from this, learn the standards of the industry you’re working in. Take a bit of time each day to get up to speed on modern HTML and CSS practices – you seem to have experience anyway, so it shouldn’t take long to adapt.

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MDNW says

Either way, templates here are coded to the latest web standards (no tables), and so the ones which do appear nicely in older versions of Dreamweaver is purely by chance.

This is a good point – After this discussion, I’ll certainly be checking my templates against Dreamweaver in the future just to see it from a buyer’s perspective (I’m guessing more than just 1 buyer is using Dreamweaver – and it just takes a couple minutes to fire up Dreamweaver and open the files)... but the growth of Dreamweaver as a piece of software makes it nearly as difficult to test for as Internet Explorer. From version to version, the entire rendering approach can change. I wouldn’t call any web developer “hardcore” for using something like notepad, it’s simply what we’ve resorted to in order to maintain consistent standards for what works and what doesn’t.

Bottom line: Buyers have a certain responsibility to keep their knowledge up to date, but so do authors. If buyers are using WYSISYG editors a good portion of the time, it’s probably worth it for authors to at least peek at what’s happening in the industry from the buyer’s perspective. I might cringe when I realize how completely trashed my site looks like through the Dreamweaver Design View, but at least I can respond more intelligently to buyer feedback. It won’t change the fact that I’m still going to code using notepad or Coda, but it’ll give authors a wider perspective on how buyers use their products. Idk – that’s just my two cents.

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graphic4444 says

Definitely good advice, Dan – agree… I’ve just been using DW daily for over a decade so it’s “how I do the internet”... but it’s not usable with wp/joomla and new design standards, so I do need to get up to speed on coding in different ways.

It’s surprising to me re “no tables”, for new standards, since that’s how I’ve designed all my sites, w/nested tables, for so many years… but that seems to be the direction things are going in. It would be good to know what you all Do use to design templates in, eg surely you don’t code them with notepad and then preview in the browser…(btw that’s how I learned, back in the 90s, I’m an old timer, pro internet dev guy)... what am i missing…?

thx all..

And right epicura re other buyers, most people if they’re regular internet entrepreneurs who buy templates for our sites, we buy them from template sites that have been around for years, and are used to opening them up in DW to modify them…. so speaking for all us thousands of DW users who buy templates, if we bought a template here, loaded it up, saw it look like spaghetti in DW, most of them would likely just not buy again, and nobody would know why… voice o the customer.. :)

If I google “website templates” and buy from those folks (I have), they all show up fine in DW.

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Orbital_Themes says
Thanks, interesting perspectives. I’ve been online fulltime since 1998, designed hundreds of webpages and over 70 sites, using Dreamweaver for all my site designs…. not sure what you guys all design/code in? Yeah ok you’re hardcore “I design all my sites by hand in notepad.exe html” lol

Well thanks for letting me know, I appreciate it. I’m one of the more experienced internet entrepreneurs around… from what I know, most of us who code websites use DW as the main app. And yes it’s an html template, not wp theme, right re wp/joomla templates aren’t really modifiable in DW very well.

I need things to be modifiable in DW because I do a lot of custom flash coding, and using components from FD etc, plus my own css/tables that I use for making mods.

I guess I’ll have to keep buying my templates elsewhere, if the ones here don’t show up properly in DW. I spend 10k+/year on this kind of stuff.

You claim that you have been using DW for many years now, so you are the one who should know that the matter is not theme incompatibility with DW, but the other way round – DW incompatibility with CSS rules. Dreamweaver’s WISYWIG editor is extremely poor, especially when it comes to advanced CSS layouts.

I can assure you that most of TF templates have very good, standard compilant coding. We are not “hardcore” and we are not coding in notepad.exe, though we write code by hand, weather it is in DW or any other app.

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MDNW says
It would be good to know what you all Do use to design templates in, eg surely you don’t code them with notepad and then preview in the browser… what am i missing…?

I personally use a combination of eNotepad and the Wordpress Theme Editor for all of my products. To be more specific, I open up my FTP program, then open each .html, .php, .js, .css, etc. file directly from the FTP folder, so when I make changes, I can preview it directly in a browser tab. This has proven to be a pretty simple work flow for me. Honestly, it’s not that different from swapping between the Dreamweaver Design & Code views, I’m just doing it from a Notepad editor and a browser window instead of Dreamweaver’s tabs. In the final stages of my design, I’ll actually have 4 or 5 browser windows open at the same time to cross-browser test.

Hope this helps :)

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graphic4444 says

hi – also the reason I’m asking is, I like a lot of the templates here and am quite wealthy and want to buy a lot of them. I am likely Envato’s top buyer, spending thousands a year at flashden, videohive etc, or at least a “top 5” buyer in terms of the $ per year I spend here. (Mark or someone else could likely verify, I spend more here than almost any other customer, at envatos’ sites).

So I want to buy, your guys’ templates are great. Just I use dw to edit sites, so I need it to fit that workflow (I code in flash, do graphics in PS/FW, and do sites in DW).

Well at least if I like the templates I can always buy them for the graphics, and create nested tables (I use strict-compliance pages for shadowbox sites, transitional for most others) and manually integrate the graphics, though that kinda defeats the purpose/intent of templates. Open to ideas, thanks everyone. btw your templates here are great, I’d like to spend a lot of money on them, if I could use them in dw.

thx,

voice of one of envato’s top-spending customers… :)

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MDNW says
I am likely Envato’s top buyer, spending thousands a year at flashden, videohive etc, or at least a “top 5” buyer in terms of the $ per year I spend here.

It’d be awesome to have a “Top Buyers” list like the “Top Authors” list, although I’m sure that would be intrusive in some way :)

Tables have their place (comparison charts, data grids, calendars, etc.), but they are sooo 2001 when it comes to the overarching site design. That said, even table-less designs should render out just fine inside Dreamweaver. I’m looking at my PixelCraft template right now, and it renders about as perfectly as I can expect DW to render it… and there’s not a table in sight.

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JeffreyWay says

@graphic4444 – Which version of Dreamweaver are you using? If it’s CS4 , you shouldn’t have any problems when switching between design and code view.

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MarkBrodhuber Envato team says

I can verify that Graphic is quite the power buyer. I’m amazed that you’ve got all this work to support the need to buy all of this stuff. Congrats on the success buddy, especially during these times!

Regarding your question here, being a reviewer of Envato in general, and a ThemeForest reviewer for the first few months of it’s lifespan, I can confirm that all sites are tested, pretty extensively in terms of verifying they work. I think the problem you are seeing is the way Dreamweaver is rendering the file, similar to what others have said here earlier. If you stay strictly in the WYSIWYG view, it will look very messy, or sometimes mis-aligned. This is because of the lack of table alignments that the site was built with. This is the new standard. Not actually new, but finally being very widely adapted now that standards are becoming so important.

A few suggestions for you. Use “split” view. The view that shows the WYSIWYG and the html. Many times when I modify a site, I will work in strictly code view, but if you don’t have a full grasp of the code, you can sort of “see where you’re at” within the site by using the code to edit, and WYSIWYG to physically pinpoint your location within the site.

Also open the site like you have done in the WYSIWYG view and then before doing anything, click the “test site in browser” button. I’m pretty certain it will look perfectly in the actual browser. Once again this is just due to the way DW is rendering the pages.

Lastly, make sure you left the folder structures in tact. If you pulled the HTML file outside of the folders and away from any image folders your site may not be able to display the images because it cant find them. Displaying blank divs.

Have a read about Div tags.

I’m sure you’ll quickly see it’s much better. It just takes some getting used to. I used to design sites in photoshop, and used the slice tool to automate cutting the site up, tabled everything and used images as backgrounds to the cells. It’s a very bloated way to make sites, on top of all the other messes it produces.

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danharper says

I’d bet that the vast majority of authors here just use some form of text editor – not necessarily Notepad, because it offers no syntax highlighting or anything to make the code easier to read.

Personally, I’m on a Mac and use TextMate. Even if you’re on Windows, take a look at some screenshots of it to see the sort of apps we use – it’s just a plain-looking text editor, with syntax highlighting and some macros to speed-up regularly used code.

A lot of text editors also provide code suggestion when writing CSS etc.

Just hit the ‘Code’ tab in Dreamweaver, that’s basically what we use. And then tabbing into Firefox and use ‘Firebug’ (a Firefox extension) to debug code.

But it’s nice to hear the thoughts of one of the top buyers here :)

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