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MBMedia says

check w3c members list to see what’s the difference.

html can be rendered by a plethora of browsers, some of them make source code fully available to anyone.

with flash you’re stuck with a single binary plugin.

current trend is not going in that direction.

You’re comparing HTML (the spec) to flash (the rendering plugin). The HTML format and the Swf format are the two on the same level to be compared. And the flash plugin (or any other swf rendering plugin) and the HTML browsers are the other two to compare.

And when you compare the format spec to the format spec you’ll find that the swf format may be many times more complex than the HTML format…but it is just as open.

And when you compare the renderer to the renderer, you’ll find that both are binaries (not really sure what you were trying to insinuate there) and that both have both proprietary and open source solutions (yes, adobe is actually not the only plugin maker for swf rendering, there are others, adobe is just the most popular and obviously ahead of the curve since they write the specs)

Trend or no trend (which actually I think the trend you’re talking about is specific to microstock because of WP being so easily managed by non-technical people…for actual client work I’ve seen a rise in the need for flash projects…) the definition of what is an open spec is what it is, the swf format is just as open as HTML …it’s just set by a company entity…instead of an organization entity, and is much more complex to work with as far as rendering engines (which would explain why there are fewer…but makes the spec no less “open”).

EDIT : about a minute of googling actually led me to what at first glance seems like a pretty neat swf rendering engine that is open source. Likely built on the open swf specs. And I don’t think I even need to name the open source swf authoring tools, there’s lots of those, half of them built on the completely open swf compiler Flex SDK (nobody better tell me that’s not open…there’s freakin nightly builds of that thing put up every day). And I know I’ve worked with other swf rendering engines at an old job that were built on the open swf specs (dunno if the engines themselves were open, but that’s not the point…they could build them and decide whether or not to make them open because the swf format is open!). I’m tellin ya man…swf is open…don’t believe Jobs, he just makes up whatever sounds like a good idea at the moment!

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bitfade says

I’m tellin ya man…swf is open…don’t believe Jobs, he just makes up whatever sounds like a good idea at the moment!
man, honestly, i don’t give a shit of what SJ says about flash.
i’m trying to make my point here: 95% of what haters say about flash is pure bs

the only valid argument is that you’re forced to use a binary, closed source plugin to display swf content in a browser

did you try one of the alternatives ? coz i did and i can say they are not alternatives at all.

so you can say swf is an open standard just because they gave swf specs ? Adobe only controls both the format and the only reliable player: that’s not how open standards work.

As soon a google acquired VP8 , they fucking released the code under BSD license and 1 year after all browsers support webm … yeah, sorry, i meant all real browser.

Adobe should do the same and allow devs to implement a native optimized flash renderer in browser.
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MBMedia says


I’m tellin ya man…swf is open…don’t believe Jobs, he just makes up whatever sounds like a good idea at the moment!
so you can say swf is an open standard just because they gave swf specs ?

Actually that’s exactly what I’m saying. Open specs means that it’s been given as standardized specs to be used by anyone without restriction…so yeah I’m saying that it’s an open spec because it’s been given as a standardized spec to be used by anyone without restriction.

If you want the flash player to become open source then that’s great…but different! But that doesn’t mean that the swf format is not an open standard...that doesn’t make sense. Just like I want IE to go open source…but since it’s not that doesn’t make HTML a closed standard.

An open standard is a standard that is publicly available and has various rights to use associated with it. And some say that in order to be “open” there can’t be any royalties associated with the usage. Swf is exactly that. I honestly don’t even understand why there’s any argument to the contrary, it’s just a definition of words and language, and those definitions apply to the swf format. I understand that you want the flash player to be open source…and I agree, but that doesn’t change the definition of of the swf spec that the flash player uses.

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bitfade says

swf is not an open standard according to w3c – making stats public is not enough

however, that’s pointless arguing coz we obviously have very different opinions about current flash situation.

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RimmonTrieu says

I agree with bitfade AND MBMedia, ha you guys are talking about different aspect of the whole picture.

I actually really don’t care if Flash (format + player) opened or not as long as Adobe being cool. I still hate them for forcing our lovely marketplace changing the name :D

Still I keep my point that opening Flash player will be the game changing decision for Adobe, they will shut a lot of hater’s mouth and being more admirable in the open web.

Flash player is not literally but naturally the standard player on the web and a lot of platform. For now Adobe is no evil but the risk is still there. I feel bad for Slivelight developers since Microsoft has lost interest in pushing their technology further. Now they decide to focus on html5 for creating interactive content in Window 8, seriously wtf ?!?

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bitfade says

Still I keep my point that opening Flash player will be the game changing decision for Adobe, they will shut a lot of hater’s mouth and being more admirable in the open web.

Flash player is not literally but naturally the standard player on the web and a lot of platform. For now Adobe is no evil but the risk is still there.

exactly
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MBMedia says

swf is not an open standard according to w3c – making stats public is not enough

“An open standard is a standard that is publicly available and has various rights to use associated with it.” When I said that I was quoting the wikipedia definition verbatim. Again, a language term, plain and simple, not something a committee decided. By your definition of standard…your definition of standard isn’t standard…mine is :) How’s that for irony?


however, that’s pointless arguing coz we obviously have very different opinions about current flash situation.

I don’t really think we do. I think I talked about the swf format, and you keep talking about the player. I think the swf spec is in a great situation, and the flash player I agree with you on that it needs change.

Honestly what should adobe do to make the swf format more open? I don’t mean the player…I mean the swf format spec.

They make it all the same definitions of the internal format of the swf spec and what each command does and how all scripts should compile, the same spec for everyone to use (standard). And they make it public, royalty free, available to everyone (open). Literally what is more open and standard than being open and standard by the literal definitions? I don’t believe that what group created the standard defines whether it’s open, I believe that the actual state of the standard determines that…is that what you disagree with?

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bobocel says

I just tried it on my iPod Touch’s Safari browser and it seems to load and display perfectly fine. Even the interaction works great with touch input. Strings vibrate smoothly and change their color as well. But there seems to be no sound coming out. So, I think VF’s point is backed that flash is there only for handling audio which my iPod cannot load.

That’s correct. Grooveshark does the same with their new interface.

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