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isarmstrong says



Let’s just forget code quality and standards as long as we’re innovating. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive, by the way.
Leaving alone code quality (which i’m all for) and talking strictly against standards, innovation was always killed by standards. You cannot really innovate and respect standards. These two terms contradict each other..
Let me tell you a little something about “standards” in case you’ve never heard this before. Just because something is decided to be a “standard” does not make it necessarily the right way or even better way of doing things. I understand the purpose of having standards and I also understand all the reasons you may at times get better results by not following them. Just because the wordpress.org people or even the Envato people have decided something is going to be a standard for their system/service/etc. does not automatically make it a rubber stamped best method, one and only way of doing things, most efficient or even “right” way of doing things.

Actually, in a lot of cases, that’s exactly what it means. Last time I worked with a Parallelus theme you guys had some good GUI innovation but you weren’t exactly modularizing script calls. I’ll have a look now and see if… nope, not a single instance of current_theme_supports( $feature ). Well then, let’s just barf scripts all over everything regardless of which features are being used. That’s efficient (Salutation theme).

In fact, the only truly restrictive requirements in the entire document are the “Long Term Submission Requirements (Phase Two)” proposals, and those aren’t even in yet.

Somehow, I don’t think requiring proper enqueuing of scripts, sanitization, externalization of scripts, and proper use of things like wp_title() (so that SEO plugins can function) are going to kill innovation. So, step back off your high horse and stop defending bad code. You guys write a clean, if somewhat inefficient theme.

Who are you trying to defend here? And why?

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Parallelus says




Let’s just forget code quality and standards as long as we’re innovating. The two concepts are not mutually exclusive, by the way.
Leaving alone code quality (which i’m all for) and talking strictly against standards, innovation was always killed by standards. You cannot really innovate and respect standards. These two terms contradict each other..
Let me tell you a little something about “standards” in case you’ve never heard this before. Just because something is decided to be a “standard” does not make it necessarily the right way or even better way of doing things. I understand the purpose of having standards and I also understand all the reasons you may at times get better results by not following them. Just because the wordpress.org people or even the Envato people have decided something is going to be a standard for their system/service/etc. does not automatically make it a rubber stamped best method, one and only way of doing things, most efficient or even “right” way of doing things.

Actually, in a lot of cases, that’s exactly what it means. Last time I worked with a Parallelus theme you guys had some good GUI innovation but you weren’t exactly modularizing script calls. I’ll have a look now and see if… nope, not a single instance of current_theme_supports( $feature ). Well then, let’s just barf scripts all over everything regardless of which features are being used. That’s efficient (Salutation theme).

In fact, the only truly restrictive requirements in the entire document are the “Long Term Submission Requirements (Phase Two)” proposals, and those aren’t even in yet.

Somehow, I don’t think requiring proper enqueuing of scripts, sanitization, externalization of scripts, and proper use of things like wp_title() (so that SEO plugins can function) are going to kill innovation. So, step back off your high horse and stop defending bad code. You guys write a clean, if somewhat inefficient theme.

Who are you trying to defend here? And why?

Wow, that’s a great example, except that it’s completely wrong. Themes have little to no use for current_theme_supports() conditions. The theme is going to be using add_theme_support() so plugins, WordPress and other add-ons can detect the supported features of the theme using current_theme_supports() and not the other way around. We do make use of add_theme_support() and you’re welcome to check on that.

We have no problem with clean code, as you’ve already seen for yourself, or standards. My arguments is not even that standards hamper innovation. I have not said that once. My point is that standards are not always right and I don’t agree that forcing certain standards will improve products necessarily, or as implied earlier that this will drive greater innovation on TF. I think that’s wrong to believe that by following standards it will magically cause a wave of innovation. It just doesn’t make sense to me.

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Parallelus says

Actually, in a lot of cases, that’s exactly what it means. Last time I worked with a Parallelus theme you guys had some good GUI innovation but you weren’t exactly modularizing script calls. I’ll have a look now and see if… nope, not a single instance of current_theme_supports( $feature ). Well then, let’s just barf scripts all over everything regardless of which features are being used. That’s efficient (Salutation theme).

In fact, the only truly restrictive requirements in the entire document are the “Long Term Submission Requirements (Phase Two)” proposals, and those aren’t even in yet.

Somehow, I don’t think requiring proper enqueuing of scripts, sanitization, externalization of scripts, and proper use of things like wp_title() (so that SEO plugins can function) are going to kill innovation. So, step back off your high horse and stop defending bad code. You guys write a clean, if somewhat inefficient theme.

Who are you trying to defend here? And why?

Oh wait, let me just have a quick look… yup, not a single instance of “current_theme_supports()” in the default TwentyTwelve or TwentyThirteen theme either… BARFFFFF SCRIPTSSS BLSAAHHH!

:D:D:D

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isarmstrong says
Oh wait, let me just have a quick look… yup, not a single instance of “current_theme_supports()” in the default TwentyTwelve or TwentyThirteen theme either… BARFFFFF SCRIPTSSS BLSAAHHH! :D:D:D

The difference is that the default themes don’t include 5 CSS files and scripts for SWFObject, Cufon, DD Smooth menu, Colorbox, and Q Tips. You guys aren’t bad, I can’t knock you (even though I made a half-hearted effort). Looking at someone like YIW though, where you have the full code for half a dozen sliders on every page, shows exactly why these sorts of standards need to be put in place. It’s not that hard to use either theme support, or even an option-based conditional to only register scripts where they are needed.

You guys actually do a good job – which is why your strident defense of bad practice is so surprising. You don’t just buy 15 plugins on CC, bundle them all into a theme with a flashy front page but crap interior design, then charge $45 an install. As far as I can tell, you basically follow all of the new standards already.

You aren’t a part of the problem, so why you are defending it?

As theme designers, I suppose you’ve never had a client tell you they really like Sommerce or Maya Shop. If you’d had that experience 7 or 8 times, you might think differently.

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Parallelus says

Oh wait, let me just have a quick look… yup, not a single instance of “current_theme_supports()” in the default TwentyTwelve or TwentyThirteen theme either… BARFFFFF SCRIPTSSS BLSAAHHH! :D:D:D

The difference is that the default themes don’t include 5 CSS files and scripts for SWFObject, Cufon, DD Smooth menu, Colorbox, and Q Tips. You guys aren’t bad, I can’t knock you (even though I made a half-hearted effort). Looking at someone like YIW though, where you have the full code for half a dozen sliders on every page, shows exactly why these sorts of standards need to be put in place. It’s not that hard to use either theme support, or even an option-based conditional to only register scripts where they are needed.

You guys actually do a good job – which is why your strident defense of bad practice is so surprising. You don’t just buy 15 plugins on CC, bundle them all into a theme with a flashy front page but crap interior design, then charge $45 an install. As far as I can tell, you basically follow all of the new standards already.

You aren’t a part of the problem, but you are defending it?

I don’t like being told what I can and can’t put in my own products, especially if I think it’s going to effect my customers or hurt the user experience. Phase II does exactly that and right now it’s not possible for me to release anything after those requirements go into effect.

Honestly, I’m not defending bad practices. I was saying that innovation isn’t driven by standards which is what greenshady had made it sound like he believed. I disagree with that and though someone should say it.

I do have strong disagreements with some of the Phase II items to be implemented but I’ve already discussed this with Envato and as far as I can tell nothing is going to change their decision. I’ll just start posting HTML templates again instead of WP themes and maybe go into making some Drupal or Joomla themes that are not being restricted in the same way.

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Parallelus says

This thread made my afternoon fun. That’s for sure. :)

Haven’t participated in a good forum sparing match in a while. I’m going to take this big smile on my face and go have a great weekend. I hope everyone else can do the same. Sure, it’s only Thursday but take a long weekend and enjoy life.

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greenshady says

Honestly, I’m not defending bad practices. I was saying that innovation isn’t driven by standards which is what greenshady had made it sound like he believed. I disagree with that and though someone should say it.

That’s not what I said exactly. I said I think standards would help push innovation. Standards are by no means the driving force behind innovation. That takes great thinking.

Forcing some degree of conformity around a set of standards is not a bad thing and can actually help people innovate. You get rid of a lot of the chaos and gain more focus, which allows you to simply get things done.

I think part of the problem is that people think that standards are some sort of box you get stuck in. They focus too much on this immaterial concept rather than thinking of all the cool and interesting things you can do with the box.

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mountainthemes says


Honestly, I’m not defending bad practices. I was saying that innovation isn’t driven by standards which is what greenshady had made it sound like he believed. I disagree with that and though someone should say it.

That’s not what I said exactly. I said I think standards would help push innovation. Standards are by no means the driving force behind innovation. That takes great thinking.

Forcing some degree of conformity around a set of standards is not a bad thing and can actually help people innovate. You get rid of a lot of the chaos and gain more focus, which allows you to simply get things done.

I think part of the problem is that people think that standards are some sort of box you get stuck in. They focus too much on this immaterial concept rather than thinking of all the cool and interesting things you can do with the box.

+100

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partnuz says

When it comes to standards and best practices Wordpress itself is great example of spaghetti code. Of course it shouldn’t be an excuse for writing bad code but I think it’s very easy to judge on somebody, without providing real solutions to solve problems in the community.

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mountainthemes says

When it comes to standards and best practices Wordpress itself is great example of spaghetti code. Of course it shouldn’t be an excuse for writing bad code but I think it’s very easy to judge on somebody, without providing real solutions to solve problems in the community.

My Solution: rewrite Wp from the ground up.

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