Hello great people of Envato and Redux Team-
First of all, Redux Framework comes to a great stage and already good enough to expend the functionality with ease- including added bonus of frequent updates from the Tead Redux.
However, we would love to take it as a base and develop further for our (upcoming) Themes to be sold on ThemeForest.
The reason of thinking about forking the framework, possibly changing the name of the classes/architect over the time ahead, is that, Redux has been developed to be a Framework for not only theme but also for plugins- and the core team already have commercial extensions for it (which indeed added great values to many and helps funding the project).
While, we would love to add custom extensions, for example functionality provided by those commercial extensions already available for Redux and beyond, by writing our own codes to it.
It seems a good idea for us since, may be when comes to fix bugs or make things work, as we want it, better not to wait for Redux team and avoid conflict over the period of time.
Off course, we’ll make sure to comply with ThemeForest rules and try our best to contribute back to the Redux Framework as much as time permits!
Love to know your opinion on this, and if someone from Team Redux could confirm whether it is fine with them- we would love to jump on it!
Spoiler alert, Dovy Paukstys here, lead dev of Redux Framework 3.0.
One of the primary reasons for the beginning, and continuation of the Redux Framework was to bring the Wordpress Developer community together. Many frameworks have come and gone over the years, and even more have been abandoned. That’s why NHP, SMOF, SimpleOptions, and Redux 2.0 merged into one.
Now, why do we have premium extensions for Redux? To keep the project alive. No project that has the amount of effort we put into it can subsist without some form of steady income. So, what do we do with that money? Pay for code, sponsor WordCamps, pay community devs who put in a lot of time, and fund new and exciting projects. We haven’t made much, to be honest. I spent 8 months of work on it and grossed 300 dollars. These days, we’ve made a little more, but no where close to the profit of a low end theme. You won’t make money off a framework, not nearly enough to replace your day job.
If you believe I am wrong, then let’s look at some great frameworks sold on CodeCanyon. Acera made 88 sales, or $1200+. iPanel made 45 sales, or $690. I will say Redux isn’t far off from those. Most devs make a framework to advertise their product. They think it will improve brand. I would argue that it doesn’t do that often. We usually end up copying one another and I call that wasted effort.
When I say I don’t make money off of this, I’ll prove it. Someone came to me asking for a starter theme. They paid me a small sum. I liked the idea, and just created this: http://generator.reduxframework.com. It takes the _s boilerplate, renames all the functions and such to fit your needs, bakes in Redux and TGM in a fully featured boilerplate theme that you can start developing with right now. I’ve worked some 15+ hours on this project, and was only paid for 2 hours of work. Not exactly making a large sum here.
Another shout out. ThemeFusion, creators of Avada, decided to make Avada 4.0 Redux based. As a result they needed some extra features. Thus, Metaboxes and Font Control were born. They contributed to the development. Had they not, I couldn’t have justified the time. Yet they didn’t pay for all my time, not even close. But now the community has those features they can use too.
If you want to build your own extensions for Redux, look at Code Editor. It’s our first third-party developer extension. You CAN sell extensions in our marketplace (after an approval process). Now, we do keep a percentage in an effort to keep Redux alive. You can also overload any Redux field or extension, to alter the functionality of Redux without ever touching the core.
My goal is to have Redux cover every control aspect of WordPress. We’re working on a customizer integration that will truly differentiate. We’re here to stay, and the community gathering around us is amazing. If you want to see some stats, check our opt-in statistics updated weekly: http://reduxframework.com/statistics/
You can fork Redux, it’s within your right to do so. My question to you is, couldn’t we work together instead? Why redo the basics when they’re already there? Come up with a new idea, a new tool, and build it off of Redux. If you want an extension improved, do it! Let us know and we’ll see what we can do to help with the time you put in.
Redux is about community. You have a choice: do what you want, or work together with Team Redux to make something great, even greater.
Well, since you asked for opinions, how about I begin with fact before leaping into the opinions?
FACT: With the GPL in place, you are allowed to clone and bastardize the code in any way you see fit, as long as it’s still Redux. Even if you call it Redux-Youname, you’re still showing respect over the fact that you did not write the core code.
FACT: Changing the name and the class names it basically taking someone elses product, re-branding it and calling it your own is theft, plain and simple…and against the law. It’s like stealing a bunch if iPods, re branding them and reselling for profit, and that is against the law.
FACT: Do you really want to be known as the dev who stole Redux and named it something else, to make yourself look more experienced than you really are (otherwise, you’d be writing your own, instead of riding the Redux coattails). Is that the rep you want in the Envato/Wordpress community?
FACT: In the worst case scenario, theft is theft. It speaks a lot to the character of the person doing the stealing.. Most people worth their salt don’t do business with unethical people.
This is where you need to ask yourself, do I want to do the right thing? Or do I want to be an unethical thief, and be remembered that way. I think the choice is clear. Consider Dovy’s offer. Not only do you get the benefit of our framework, but we get the benefit of your contributions.
Also, regarding your comment
It seems a good idea for us since, may be when comes to fix bugs or make things work, as we want it, better not to wait for Redux team. I’m trying to figure out when anyone has waiting for support for Redux, and I’m typically the one supplying it. Most says, I have reports filed and fixed within hours (well, US hours). Now take a peek at other devs’ Gits and see how many open issues they have. 50, 60, 100s? We have 7 as of this writing, because that’s mostly what I do, answer issues and fix bugs (or correct user code).
OPINION: If you go ahead with what you want to do, then very few people will respect you as a dev and as a person. You won’t have mine, and I’ll find ways to make sure getting access to our code from that point forward very difficult, so I hope you have the skills of a Sr. Level dev to fix the things that do come up, because you won’t be getting it from us.
OPINION: Finally, you said this:
Off course, we’ll make sure to comply with ThemeForest rules and try our best to contribute back to the Redux Framework as much as time permits!. Do you know what I read? “Oh, and as an afterthought, because your rules say we have to, we’ll try and get around to sharing our changes with them, if time permits.” – I mean, do go out of your way, or anything. I highly suspect you won’t anyway. People who steal rarely ever go back to those they stole from and offer recompense.
So, I would consider your choice here carefully, and talk to Dovy first before making a sizable mistake.
Kevin Provance, Jr. Dev, Issues, Copyeditor, and all around bug squasher.
Benjamin of Titan Framework here.
@kprovance I’ll have to point out that the first two facts of yours may be incorrect. Here’s what I know about GPL:
When GPL is in place, he can change the code any way he wants and can rebrand it to whatever he wants, just as long as if released publicly, the modified framework should still have the same GPL license. I don’t think attribution is required unless specified in the license. Of course, morally the original author and project should be attributed.
@SimpleRain & @kprovance Going back to the topic, I don’t think @splendous is talking about stealing, rebranding and selling the modified framework. From the original post, I gather that he just wants to fork Redux and tailor fit it to his needs, adding features as their themes need them.
@splendous, I think it would be better to just use Redux as it is and build your theme around it without modifying it. You’ll get the benefit of bug fixes and new features for the framework, without implementing them yourself. Instead of developing it further, just create extensions that work with it. Personally, forking it and modifying it completely would be more work and time consuming if you’re simply doing it to create themes.
Since we are in the topic of frameworks, I would like suggest for you to take a look at Titan Framework.
Kind of harsh remarks considering Redux is also a fork of “someone else’s work” as you put it. If he wants to branch the project there is nothing wrong with it. If forking of GPL projects was not permitted there would be no Redux framework to begin with.
Thanks Dovy, you’re kind to share the insights. I appreciate your time and effort you put into Redux Framework. You’ve done a great job to bring altogether and merge 4 framework into one, that count.
@kprovance, I can understand your stress and frustration. You remind me one of my Haiku I’ve written long ago, called “Delusion”- just sharing with you-
What you believe is what you get – The fact is not to deceive the fact.
Its nice of you to supplying the support around Redux Framework and your premium extension. Don’t lose your spirit and keep doing as your time/passion permits you to do so- Best wishes.
@bfintal Thanks mate, you’ve got it alright. My intention isn’t forking Redux to make yet another Option framework and selling it- even if the license allows to. Instead, tailor fit it to the requirement of our (upcoming) Themes, make ‘em useful enough for possible buyers including third party developers to expend it easily for further tailoring.
Appreciate your opinion, best wishes for your Titan Framework, it looks promising!
@Parallelus Thanks dude! How’s going your Runway Frameowrk?
Following are the few things that drives the idea to fork it exclusively:
(1) I’ve installed the Redux Framework from WordPress plugin repository. Activated the sample theme downloaded from GitHub. It alerts, the plugin has update and instead of updating the plugin itself it direct me to the GitHub page to download latest version.
As an end user, isn’t it bring confusion and raise support issues? For a commercial theme that bundles the Redux Framework, may not need to keep up with ongoing frequent updates for the framework itself. May be its me, missed the point.
(2) Deactivating the sample theme of Redux Framework and activating other theme, alerts me to whether to load a built-in demo config for the plug-in. What it is for?
As an author, since the demo config wont sufficient, why have to have write code to disable the demo config? The core, may be, should be good enough to exclude the sample config and do nothing if there is none loaded. In fact, the core have couple of extra codes just for the demo, I failed to see the purpose of ‘em.
(3) There’s a “Tracking” extension listed in the premium section. I can see the Core comes with a “inc/tracking.php”, though, it asks the user whether to “track” the usage or not. The host it suppose to post the data is “tracking.dev/local.php”. Seems like a pending extension, yet exist in the core?
(4) The premium extensions. I’m not against it, only, it seems early. And may be Redux Team should consider more carefully what goes into Core and what could be a Extension with a price tag.
I would spend more time to understand what goes on into the core deeply. So far I like the clean code. The architect is simple and logical. Hopefully, the best part of Redux is the fields and validation, including the system for extensions and/or hooks/filters for overriding. ...
Thanks guys for the opinions! Keep it coming, please-
@parallelus indeed. Try to get past @kprovance’s sharpness to his feelings. He’s a solid dev who has put endless hours into Redux. He doesn’t want someone taking that work and saying it’s from them. I fear the overall intent of @splendous was misunderstood.
@splendous, I will answer each of your questions in turn. I think you’ll be shocked, heh.
1) That’s because dev_mode is on. Turn that argument off and there go the update suggestions. You never ship with dev_mode on. Also there’s an argument to turn off those alerts even with dev_mode on.
2) There’s a hook in the sample-config that shuts the demo alerts off. You may want to look over the sample a bit more, or read our documentation at http://docs.reduxframework.com/
3) Tracking is indeed built in, and we don’t hide that at all. It’s 100% anonymous and opt-in. What do we do with that data? Look here: http://reduxframework.com/statistics
This allows us to see the top themes/plugins that we have to make sure we’re compatible with. For example, someone reported a woocommerce bug. We knew that that was highly used so we put in a fix within an hour. It also lets us know WordPress versions, Languages, and soon PHP Versions. All of these items simply help us to debug.
The premium extensions is more of a service. Look here: http://reduxframework.com/statistics/?d=3a91ce2622596f6b4c67e27a4a2dc313. This is the view of the Redux statistics for Shoestrap (http://shoestrap.org), an open source theme. By buying premium support or the tracking service, we let you know what YOUR users are using.
4) Again, look above at my initial comment.
By “bringing 4 frameworks into one” I basically rewrite the majority of all the code. I kept the structure and added greatly to everything. I did this over the course of 8 months on my own. Donations don’t happen with open source, not really. Premium gives you a feature that saves you HOURS of time, and supports the project to keep it growing. I would argue that Redux can’t survive without it, because I can’t work for nearly a year without any compensation. It’s just a fact and ensures I can justify Redux expenses without taking away from my children.
I think that clears up most everything. Ask anything else, but perhaps our issue tracker or a Skype session would be more appropriate. You (or anyone) can Skype me directly: DovyDigital.
Thanks and I wish you the best with your themes.
@kprovance Kind of harsh remarks considering Redux is also a fork of “someone else’s work” as you put it. If he wants to branch the project there is nothing wrong with it. If forking of GPL projects was not permitted there would be no Redux framework to begin with.
FYI while digging more about back-end for themes- we realized back then that WordPress Customizer is the future (we understood it’s the focus from WordPress core developers, and w.org reviewers makes it mandatory too since a while) so we spent time and resource on write down our codes, and get away from Redux by all means.
Finally, we’ve realized it’s a wrong doing to keep a theme-framework over the WordPress core layers- that makes it bloat and complicated things unnecessarily. So we ended up having a modular code-base for various features, and only include the features/code per theme on needed basis- that keeps it compact and easier for everyone, same time we’ve to spend less time to worry about maintenance.
I would suggest to keep away from theme-frameworks that offer tons of things, instead pick a theme starter like _s (underscore), and add-on class/functions per theme based on desired features.